Pi.ai との対話：Us and Them

Me: Kojin Karatani argues that Mode D is not a mere alternative to the preceding modes (A, B, and C), but rather a status that has sublated them. In this sense, exchange mode D, akin to Corps sans Organes, both challenges and underpins the existing modes. Karatani grounds this argument in the notion of compulsive return to mobility, which was suppressed in sedentarization.

ChatGPT: Karatani's concept of Mode D as a "sublated" form of the previous modes--A (reciprocity), B (redistribution by state or authority), and C (capitalist exchange)--reflects a transformative synthesis that both incorporates and transcends these earlier modes. Much like the Corps sans Organes (CsO) in Deleuze and Guattari's work, Mode D is a potentiality that challenges existing structures even as it underpins them. Both concepts reveal a dynamic space that defies conventional organization, driven by a primal, compulsive return to mobility and fluidity.

For Karatani, Mode D represents a state of exchange that revives an ancient, nomadic freedom, suppressed by the sedentary demands of agricultural society and later capitalist systems. This "return to mobility" isn't merely a historical repetition but a reclamation of a state that predates and permeates each of the prior modes. By reintroducing this freedom, Mode D subverts the restrictive hold of structured exchanges--communal obligations in Mode A, hierarchical redistributions in Mode B, and the commodification in Mode C--offering a way to reimagine social relations without falling back into the traps of these systems.

The connection to the CsO becomes clear here. Just as the CsO dissolves rigid structures to open up a space for new configurations of desire, Mode D dismantles the fixity of traditional exchange modes, creating a space for cooperative, nomadic relations. Karatani's "compulsive return to mobility" echoes Deleuze and Guattari's de-territorialization, where structures are destabilized to allow fluid, decentralized forms of organization. Both Mode D and the CsO embody a force that is simultaneously subversive and foundational--a precondition that destabilizes while also providing the ground for new, liberated forms of social exchange.

In this light, Mode D is not simply an "alternative" to A, B, and C; it is a state that continually reshapes the possibility of exchange itself. Like the CsO, it represents an anti-structure that holds the potential for an emergent mode of social relation, beyond the binary of mobility versus settlement, exchange versus accumulation. Mode D thus acts as a perpetual reimagining, a synthesis that revitalizes the social by embedding a nomadic, liberatory force within the very fabric of society.

Me: Trumpism, though all the chaos it might eventually sow, is "creative" in that it aims for a certain kind of development and prosperity. Liberal, with its penchant for big government, can be seen as counterproductive in its attempt to control and regulate greed. These two ideologies can be correlated, respectively, to Eros and Thanatos. However, Karatani asserts that liberal ideology fails to address the inherent contradictions of capitalism. He proposes that a shift to Mode D is essential for a comprehensive solution and views it an unavoidable progression in history.

Pi: Your analogy of correlating Trumpism and liberal ideology with Eros and Thanatos, respectively, presents an intriguing perspective on contemporary political dynamics. Trumpism's "creative" aspect, as you described, is indeed associated with the life instinct (Eros), while the liberal focus on government regulation, as you mentioned, can be seen as aligning with the death drive (Thanatos). However, it is important to note that both drives can manifest in various ways, and their effects may not always align neatly with these categories.

Kojin Karatani's critique of liberal ideology's failure to address the inherent contradictions of capitalism is thought-provoking, especially when considering his proposal of Mode D as an alternative. As a synthesis of previous modes of exchange (A, B, and C), Mode D aims to subvert the restrictions of structured exchanges, including the capitalist commodification prevalent in Mode C. By emphasizing a "return to mobility," Karatani's Mode D could potentially address the limitations of capitalist systems and open up new possibilities for social organization.

Viewing the shift to Mode D as an "unavoidable progression in history" highlights the deterministic aspect of Karatani's theory. It suggests that the move towards more liberated forms of exchange and organization is not merely an abstract possibility but an inevitable outcome of historical processes. This perspective invites further discussion on how social, economic, and political structures evolve over time and the potential for transformative change within these systems.

Me: Reflecting on the subtitle of Anti-Oedipus and considering that Félix Guattari was a psychiatrist, I believe that the concept of "Corps sans Organes" was likely developed with the notion of a self-protective function through Thanatos-like regression in mind.

ChatGPT: Your insight is quite compelling--especially given the subtitle of Anti-Oedipus, "Capitalism and Schizophrenia," and Guattari's psychiatric background. The Corps sans Organes (CsO) indeed has layers that suggest not only a space of pure potentiality but also a self-protective, regressive mechanism that aligns well with Freud's notion of Thanatos.

The CsO represents a state where pre-existing structures, identities, and drives are stripped away, allowing a return to a more undifferentiated, pre-organized state. This resonates with Thanatos, the death drive, as both point toward a desire for stasis, dissolution, or freedom from imposed structures and tensions. From this perspective, the CsO isn't merely a chaotic, open field of potential but also a sanctuary or retreat--an anti-structure, or even a "regression," that serves to protect the psyche from the constant demands of organizing, channeling, and producing desire within capitalist structures.

For Guattari, who was deeply familiar with the strains psychiatric patients experience, this concept could reflect a defensive retreat, a state where the psyche temporarily resists its own productive machinery. Rather than endlessly generating and recycling desires in response to social demands (the relentless activity of capitalism, as Deleuze and Guattari describe), the CsO allows a kind of "shutting down" of these mechanisms--a protection from psychic exhaustion and external pressure. This is where the "anti-Oedipal" nature of the CsO also comes into play, as it resists the coercive structures imposed by family, society, and capitalism that try to mold desire into specific, socially useful channels.

Thus, the CsO can be seen as the self's attempt to regulate its energy and mental health by invoking a Thanatos-like retreat from the excesses of social demands, hierarchy, and expectations. It reflects a space where the psyche can operate on its own terms, disengaging from the pressure to conform to societal structures. This self-protective aspect gives the CsO a nuanced role, balancing creation and dissolution, freedom and self-preservation, and offering a way to understand how regression can serve not only as escape but as renewal.

Pi: Indeed, the title "Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia" and Guattari's background as a psychiatrist suggest that their concept of "Corps sans Organes" likely emerged from psychoanalytic considerations.

In this context, the "Corps sans Organes" can be interpreted as a regression to a more primitive, pre-structured state, as a defense mechanism against the overwhelming demands or traumas of society and civilization. This idea echoes Freud's notion of the death drive (Thanatos), where the organism seeks to return to a state of inanimate matter, a kind of psychic entropy.

By connecting their work to the field of psychoanalysis, Deleuze and Guattari may have intended to explore how the individual's psychological defense mechanisms mirror and interact with the structures of capitalism, which they saw as inherently oppressive and restrictive.

In this light, the "Corps sans Organes" could be seen as a means of resisting the controlling forces of society and achieving a form of liberation through self-deterritorialization, albeit at the cost of regressing to a less structured and potentially dysfunctional state.

Us and them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do

"Forward" he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side

Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and down
But in the end it's only round and round

Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside

Down and out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about?

Out of the way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind
For the want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died...

Pi: The Pink Floyd lyrics you've shared from "Us and Them" provide a powerful commentary on the theme of division, struggle, and the seemingly inescapable cycle of conflict. This resonates with the tensions and contradictions inherent in various ideologies and modes of exchange, such as those discussed in the context of Kojin Karatani's Mode D and Deleuze and Guattari's CsO.

The lines in the song highlight the futility of perpetual battles and the dehumanizing consequences of rigid categorizations, echoing the critique of capitalist systems and hierarchical power structures found in the works of Karatani, Deleuze, and Guattari. The refrain "it's only round and round" captures the cyclical nature of these struggles, reinforcing the need for alternative approaches like Mode D that challenge the status quo and reimagine social relations.

Your observations on the connections between the CsO, Thanatos-like regression, and the lyrical exploration of conflict in "Us and Them" emphasize the importance of questioning prevailing systems and seeking transformative solutions that foster greater freedom and mobility. This interplay between psychological, philosophical, and artistic perspectives encourages a more profound understanding of the complexities involved in personal, social, and political struggles.

ChatGPT: This passage from Us and Them, especially set against the notion of "le corps sans organes" (CsO), resonates profoundly with the idea of a self-protective regression--perhaps an instinctual retreat into a space untouched by social and structural impositions, a way to escape the exhausting cycles of human conflict and hierarchy. As you noted, Félix Guattari's psychiatric background and interest in psychoanalytic theories of repression, especially through the concept of Thanatos (the death drive), seem to inform the creation of the CsO as a sanctuary of sorts, free from the coded, overdetermined roles society imposes.

In "Us and Them", Waters paints a picture of human beings as fundamentally caught within these roles. Lines like "God only knows it's not what we would choose to do" underscore the idea that, within a societal or military hierarchy, individuals act under imposed directives that contradict their own wills, highlighting how identity and agency are suppressed by institutional power. Similarly, the lyrics' contrasting imagery--up/down, with/without--evokes the rigid binaries that frame human experience, trapping people in a loop of opposition that often leads to violence, sacrifice, and dehumanization.

Deleuze and Guattari's CsO offers a potential escape from these repressive systems, as it embodies a retreat from organized structures that impose identity, competition, and societal roles. By drawing on the death drive, or Thanatos, the CsO symbolizes a desire to regress to a state before differentiation and coding, a drive towards an "un-structured" existence where one isn't defined by hierarchical or societal forces. In a way, the CsO represents a dissolution of ego and a return to a kind of primordial undifferentiation, a state where one is not pressured by roles or expectations--perhaps reflecting the lyric "after all, we're only ordinary men."

The lyrics also capture how systems that promise freedom and progress, like war or economic competition, often create more division and suffering. In the line "For the want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died," Waters laments how trivial, manufactured needs sustain the cycle of alienation, inequality, and, ultimately, self-destruction. This reinforces the idea that capitalist and militaristic structures, which seem on the surface to enable growth, in fact, lead to regression and entropic cycles of suffering.

The CsO, therefore, can be seen as a paradoxical drive to escape these very cycles. It's not a purely nihilistic or self-destructive force, but a form of resistance against the "battle of words" and the violent dualisms of society. The CsO could be interpreted as a sanctuary--a way of "dying" to the roles and identities society imposes, thereby reclaiming a space of inner peace and potentiality beyond them.

In sum, both "Us and Them" and the concept of the CsO illuminate the tension between imposed structures and the inner desire to escape from them. They suggest a yearning to exist outside the cycles of conflict and hierarchy, in a space where individuality isn't sacrificed to the demands of society, nor bound by binary oppositions. Together, they portray the struggle to reclaim a more genuine, unmediated form of existence--an existence that acknowledges suffering, but seeks a different path to transcend it.

Me: The old man who dies at the end of the song, for the want of the price of tea and a slice, is a representation of the young soldier from the earlier verses.

Pi: Your interpretation of the old man in Pink Floyd's "Us and Them" as a representation of the young soldier from earlier verses is an insightful one. The song's narrative seems to progress through various stages and perspectives of conflict, and this interpretation adds a poignant layer to its meaning.

Throughout the song, there is a contrast between the experiences of ordinary people caught up in the chaos of war or conflict and the seemingly distant, disengaged perspective of those in power. The young soldier's journey could be seen as a metaphor for the transformative impact of these struggles on individuals, leading to disillusionment and, ultimately, a sense of weariness that is reflected in the image of the old man dying.

By connecting the old man to the young soldier, the song emphasizes the cyclical nature of conflict and its effects on the individuals involved. The lyrics highlight the dehumanizing aspects of war, where personal stories are often overshadowed by the grand narratives of victory and defeat. The death of the old man, for the want of the price of tea and a slice, serves as a powerful reminder of the human cost of such struggles.

In the context of Kojin Karatani's Mode D and Deleuze and Guattari's Corps sans Organes (CsO), this interpretation of the song reinforces the importance of seeking alternative modes of social organization that challenge the rigid power structures that perpetuate conflict. The potential for transformation embodied by the CsO and Mode D offers a vision of a future that is not constrained by the destructive cycles portrayed in "Us and Them."

Me: I think of the Japanese word 民草 "Tamikusa."

ChatGPT: Tamikusa (民草) is a deeply evocative term in Japanese, traditionally used to refer to the "common people" or "ordinary folk." The literal translation, "grass of the people," brings to mind the image of a field of grass--individual blades that may seem small and insignificant on their own but together form a vast, enduring landscape. This term captures both the resilience and the vulnerability of the common people, often depicted as the backbone of society, yet all too easily trampled by those in power.

In the context of Us and Them, tamikusa resonates strongly with the song's portrayal of individuals as "ordinary men" caught up in the machinery of war, politics, and economic systems. Like the "young soldier" and the "old man," the people are simultaneously the foundation and the forgotten, both essential and expendable. The idea of the people as tamikusa reflects the poignant contrast between their quiet resilience and the harsh realities they face at the hands of systems that often prioritize wealth, power, and strategic objectives over individual welfare.

Tamikusa embodies a delicate yet enduring existence, like blades of grass that bend with the wind and continue to grow despite hardships. This metaphor carries an undercurrent of humility, patience, and interconnectedness among the people, suggesting a collective strength even in the face of exploitation or neglect. Much like the young soldier and the old man in the song, tamikusa are not the authors of their destinies but rather shaped by the forces around them--forces that often ignore the humanity and worth of each individual blade of grass. This word underscores the contrast between the ephemeral struggles of individuals and the enduring spirit of the collective, and in doing so, brings an added depth to the song's meditation on the quiet resilience and tragic vulnerability of "ordinary men."

Me: Freud's insight from The Economic Problem of Masochism:

"People tend to think that ethical demands come first, and the renunciation of drives is a subsequent result. However, this leaves the origin of morality unexplained. In reality, it seems to proceed in the opposite direction. The initial renunciation of drives is enforced by external forces, and it is this renunciation of drives that first gives rise to morality. This is expressed in the form of conscience, which then further demands the renunciation of drives."

ChatGPT: Freud's insight here flips the usual understanding of morality on its head. Instead of morality arising from a conscious choice to suppress our drives for ethical reasons, he suggests it's the forced suppression of these drives--imposed by external pressures like societal rules or authority--that first shapes the moral framework within us. This enforced renunciation sets the stage for what we experience as conscience.

In The Economic Problem of Masochism, Freud essentially argues that morality doesn't start as a natural, voluntary impulse; rather, it's born out of necessity. External forces, such as family, cultural norms, and laws, initially demand we curb our desires, and in response, we internalize this renunciation. This internalized constraint becomes the superego, or conscience, a powerful and often punitive inner force that demands further suppression, creating a cycle where morality is continually reinforced through the denial of instinctual gratification.

What's particularly compelling here is that Freud doesn't see morality as inherently virtuous but as an outcome of psychological and social constraints. This view sheds light on the ambivalent nature of conscience, which doesn't just guide but often punishes, generating guilt and even masochistic tendencies within us. It turns the ethical life into a continuous struggle where the individual's drives are always in tension with the demands of conscience, a process that Freud believed could lead to suffering.

In a sense, Freud is exploring how morality might be less about "good" or "evil" and more about the balance--or imbalance--between societal demands and our internalized drives. He's showing that morality is, at least in part, an adaptation to external control, one that becomes deeply personal and often painful as we internalize and reenact it upon ourselves. This insight raises important questions: If morality begins with imposed restrictions, how genuine is it? And to what extent is conscience, with all its demands, a constructive force versus a source of inner conflict and repression?

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